Effects of low P H

[SAWATER]

I have a customers home that is supplied by a private well. The water piping is a copper installation. We are having pin holes occur in the system repeatedly in the
bodies and solder hubs of the brass cut off valves not the copper piping. The valves that are giving the homeowner all the problems are at the water heaters. There are three in this house.

Would the effects of low P H attack brass before copper??

P H testing has occure three times over the course of 6 months.
1) 6.1
2) 6.8
3) 6.3

Hardness swings from 72gpg to 83gpg
TDS as high as 1427ppm
Conductivity over 3200

Existing treatment equipment includes.
120,000 grain softener
Fresh Point Ultra filter

[greg-cws]

That is some very interesting water chemistry.

You have three major compounding factors:

High hardness
Low pH
High conductivity

Once you add high temperature to the mix it gets really exciting !

This highly conductive solution will corrode everything that it touches. All appliances, faucets, fixtures and plumbing will slowly degrade.

The fact that your influent water pH is still so low with that much hardness in it is indicative of extremely high levels of mineral acid and/or CO2 in the water.
'The corrosion is manifesting at the brass components first because of the zinc content. Zinc will donate electrons and disappear before the copper. The copper will soon follow suit.

The recommended solution would to add nanofiltration to the process to lower the conductivity; and then neutralize the pH further to bring it up to around 7.5

[SAWATER]

Current water chemistry. 4-13-09.

UNTREATED SAMPLE FROM WELL HEAD
PH 6.8
TDS 1992 PPM
SALINITY 1360
CONDUC 2753
HRDNES 72

TREATED SAMPLE FROM HOSE BIBB AFTER ALL EQUIP.
PH 6.8
TDS 2540 PPM
SAL 1872
CON 3689
HRD 1


WHAT SEEMS INTERESTING IS THAT ANY GALVANIZED NIPPLES ON HOUSE SIDE OF TREATMENT DO NOT LAST 6 MONTHS. YET THE WELL HEAD HAS 1 1/4 GALV PIPE AND FITTINGS, AND HAS TWO 1 1/4 BRASS BALL VLVS, AND A BRASS HOSE BIBB. ALL THESE ITEMS SEEM TO BE UNAFFECTED. THIS WELL AND PIPING ARE 8 YRS OLD.

AGAIN THE EQUIPMENT IN USE, 120,000 GRN SOFTNR W/ERIE ROTARY HEAD.
FRESH POINT U/F

THE OWNER ALSO HAD ME LOOK AT A SNOW WHITE BUILD UP OCCURRING ON THE THREADS OF A 1 COPPER MALE ADPTR AND THE NUT OF A STAINLESS STEEL FLEX CONNECTR
ON OUTLET OF WATER SOFTNR.
ALSO IT IS EMANATING OR BUILDING EVENLY AROUND A 1 INCH COPPER SOLDER JOINT, INLET SIDE OF 1 INCH BRASS BALL VALVE.THESE POINTS ARE NOT WET TO THE TOUCH AND WERE NOT APPARENT 3 MONTHS AGO.
THIS BUILD UP OR MUSHROOMING PRODUCT LOOKS LIKE ITS A CRUSTATION BUT WHEN YOU TOUCH IT, YOU REALIZE IT IS A POWDER THAT TURNS THE END OF YOUR FINGER TIP WHITE. THIS IS NOT THE COMMON LOOK OF SCALE BUILD UP THAT OCCURES DOWN HERE.

WHEN WATER DROPLETS DRY, A WHITE POWDER IS LEFT BEHIND ON SURFACES. THIS CAN EASYLY BE WIPED OFF WITH YOUR HAND.

YOUR RIGHT IT IS VERY INTERESTING WATER.
WHAT DO YOU THINK NOW . SEEMS I GET ALL THE GOOD ONES TO DEAL WITH.

[greg-cws]

You sure do know how to pick 'em :D

Looking at the test data, I suspect we could improve our softened water quality by increasing the backwash timings on the system. Please post the programming data so that we can look at it.

The corrosion after the softener is quite understandable. With water this conductive, the ion-exchange softening process is adding to the conductivity, making the process even worse. I'm excited to see where the conductivity goes after we reconfigure the programming.

The white powder is most likely a carbonate - Pour some Pur-Gard on at an see if it fizzes!

If the homeowner can afford it, I would recommend changing the treatment process to include nanofiltration and calcium buffering before it hits the softener.

What kind of pressure and flow is the well delivering?

[SAWATER]

Here you go. Cut on 47 psi. Cut off 70 psi. there is a 200 gal pressure tank with 3/4 hp pressure pump.
Before treatment equip. flow can be sustained at 14gpm.

ERIE SETTINGS

Cycle 1 - backwash 15 min
Cycle 2 - brine/rinse 90 min
Cycle 3 - fill/rinse 13 min

All cycles can be adjusted 0 to 99 min

No fizzes on the white powder treated with Pur-Gard.

If we do nano filtration will the ultra filter still need to be used?
Does nano filters backwash like ultra or do we create storage like whole house R O.

This fellow is a friend in the plumbing industry and owns his own company. New construction only. Moneys not really a concern if I can resolve all issues with the water.

[greg-cws]

Here you go. Cut on 47 psi. Cut off 70 psi. there is a 200 gal pressure tank with 3/4 hp pressure pump.
Before treatment equip. flow can be sustained at 14gpm.

Pressure & flow are good enough to comfortably support a parallel-processing nanofilter array.

The most cost-effective way to integrate nanofiltration on this job is to include an atmospheric holding tank. Do you have room for at least a 300 gallon tank? (36 inch diameter). Bigger is better when it comes to storage.




ERIE SETTINGS

Cycle 1 - backwash 15 min
Cycle 2 - brine/rinse 90 min
Cycle 3 - fill/rinse 13 min

All cycles can be adjusted 0 to 99 min


I am assuming you have the capacity and hardness settings at their actual values?
128K on capacity and 72 on hardness. Drop your capacity to 96,000 grain and change the cycle times to the following:-

Cycle 1 - 20 minutes
Cycle 2 - 99 minutes
Cycle 3 - 20 minutes

That will tide you over until the nanofilter is installed.



No fizzes on the white powder treated with Pur-Gard.


Interesting, send me a sample for analysis when you get a chance.



If we do nano filtration will the ultra filter still need to be used?
Does nano filters backwash like ultra or do we create storage like whole house R O.

I like to use the ultrafilter to protect the nanofiltration array, it will put less load on the membranes.
The nano will use a storage tank, but will also periodically backwash and clean with Pur-Gard injection controlled by a evertech control, similar to the controls on the Patriots and Smart Bottles you've been installing.



This fellow is a friend in the plumbing industry and owns his own company. New construction only. Moneys not really a concern if I can resolve all issues with the water.

We definitely can resolve his issues with a custom nanofiltration processor. I'll email you a schematic shortly so that you can prepare a budget etc...

To keep you entertained and show your frined what the technology can do, here's a synopsis on a project I recently consulted on with similar water - Capitol Reef National Park (http://www.wcponline.com/pdf/0903Reyneke.pdf). Pay close attention to the "before" and "after" water test results.

[SAWATER]

I'm back now. I'll get a fresh sample and forward to you. Space is limited. Currently this space has 2- 50 gal electric water heaters, 120,000 grain softener, and brine tank, ultrafilter secured vertically to wall next to brine tank and U V mounted on wall above brine tank. Unless I can eliminate softener and brine tank there is no free area left. This room is off of a laundryroom. Also will the arrangment have to include restabilizing the water after nano? Maybe he should just move?? LOL We may have to rethink entire equipment setup. He has objected to doing whole house R O for fear of the agressive water attacking the copper water distrbution system. You can wait till sample arrives to responde if you like.