Cleenwater Salt-free softener

[provohandyandy]

I've posted this before on another forum, but couldn't get a straight reply.

I live outside Provo, UT. My water is from a private well.
My water is 20granes hard and there is no iron.

I hate hard water and I really don't want to get a salt softener like everyone else uses around here.

Has anyone heard of these guys - http://www.cleenwater.com ?

They advertise pretty heavily here on the radio that they have a whole house softner that doesn't use salt.

I've emailed them to ask how the system works and if it will make water as good as a salt softner, but they never did reply.

I really want to believe that this system will work, but I can't find any 3rd party research to show if the thing works.

Please help me make a good decision !

[plumbkrazed]

www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

http://www.lenntech.com/water-pseudoscience.htm

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/waterindex.html

[ion_avenger]

That is just ludicrous ! - the science doesn't even make sense. watch their video, it's good for a laugh.

[greg-cws]

Be rational & test the water.

Have them bring a demonstration system to your home and do a before/after test. The water after their system will be as hard as the water before their system. According to their literature that is normal :confused: Since that is "normal" have them give you/show you a different test that allows you to test to see if your system is working or not.

If they claim that it SOFTENS the water, then the calcium needs to be removed. You can't soften without removing the calcium.I can understand if they're claiming it as a scale prevention device, but then have them at least show certification by a legitimate organization life WAQ, NSF or DVGW.

[ion_avenger]

The system can't soften the water - physically impossible.
Run screaming and go buy something that will work from a licensed plumber or water specialist

[provohandyandy]

I emailed them and this is the reply I got:

Hello Andy,

Thanks for you inquiry. In well water applications we recommend the 1252 Combination Tank. Your well likely has metals, VOC’s, and other issues that our filtration can remove. Our Scale Eliminator, the electronic impulse portion of our system, will help to reduce scale inside the pipes as well as helping to make the calcium and magnesium (hardness) more soluble. Softeners remove these minerals completely and put sodium ions back in their place, while our system simply breaks them down into finer forms of minerals. That way you retain the optimal pH and taste of mineral water, while reducing scale deposits. Please watch our video called “Take a Tour” and you can get a good idea of why we think we have the best product for your needs. We look forward to providing you with solutions for your water needs.

So they say they not taking the calcium out, I watched the video and just don't understand. I wnat this to work but don't want to get ripped off.

[greg-cws]

provohandyandy, just call the Utah Department of Commerce's Office of Consumer Protection. Ask them what you've been asking us and then decide for yourself if you want to purchase one of those systems.

[greg-cws]

Although municipal water in Utah is some of the safest in the nation, many home owners are plagued with hard water problems. Hard water affects Utah residents in a number of ways, including pipe scaling, premature appliance failure, fixture damage, excess heating energy consumption, soap waste and exacerbation of skin conditions such as eczema and psoriasis.

Most Utah home owners have now or will soon purchase a water softener, conditioner or comprehensive whole home filtration system to help address these problems. Many companies in Utah currently sell water softening devices and are properly regulated within their scope as licensed plumbers or specialty contractors.

All modern ion exchange water softeners physically remove calcium & magnesium from water and function on generally the same principle - exchanging ionic contaminants in water for sodium or potassium ions (not salt). This proven technology has been used in residential, commercial and industrial applications for well for over 100 years and continues to be refined by various manufacturers to be progressively more efficient, economical and reliable. The performance of ion exchange softeners can easily be verified by testing for the presence or absence of calcium ions in product water.

Recently, a number of companies have begun selling

[plumberman]

I recently had a dealer called enviropure try and convince me to distribute these systems into the public. After studying the system and consulting a very knowledgable personel I found out that it just breaks down the hardwater and the system is so sensitive that it really doesnt take much to render it useless. Not to mention it can clog up your pipes with the broken down hard water so multiple flushings will be needed a few weeks or months after the install. When I called these peaple to the matt to answer for there product they got sqweemish and slowly started backing away. I got the feeling that they where just high powered sales peaple and wanted to hit a community and simply play a numbers game with the knowledge that if you knock on enough doors you'll get a certain amount of peaple who dont know any better,then when things dry up there off and running to the next town.

Definatly not a product I want tied to my name.

[WaterGuy]

Would anyone really expect these guys to say anything good about CleenWater, a company that competes with them directly? Greg is from Intermountain Water and obviously has an axe to grind because CleenWater never claims to be a Water Softener, but rather an alternative to a water softener. The calcium stays in the water, in a more soluble state and the water is filtered throug the home, so many people will see the benefits. Just because it isn't the same as a water softener doesn't mean that it can't be appreciated for what does do in someone's home.

Water products are based on personal preference and some people will prefer softeners while others will prefer alternative forms of water treatment. That's what is great about America, we get a choice! Don't try to take that choice away by writing everything off that isn't what you sell.

Also, Enviropure isn't the same as CleenWater. Be carfeul what you are comparing. The only comparable product to CleenWater is H2O concepts from Arizona. They have been using the technology there for over 15 years.

[greg-cws]

WaterGuy, thanks for joining in on the discussion, it's good to have you here, please feel free to post your opinions freely and help out in any of the categories. :)

I do work for Intermountain, I've posted it quite plainly on the forum NUMEROUS times.

I actually don't have an axe to grind against Cleenwater and I've never heard of any of our salesmen losing a sale to them.

I'm very much in favor of softening without salt. When someone invents a truly salt-free system that can remove calcium & magnesium, I'll be first in line to buy one.

Since you've joined in the discussion, and presumably work for Cleenwater, help me understand your presentation :-

You promote a "salt-free" system.
Are you touting it as being able to do any of the following:-

- Reduce calcium scale
- Decrease soap consumption
- Protect water heaters from calcium scale buildup
- Decrease new hardness scale buildup in plumbing pipes

If not, what are you touting it as ?

I can understand that your system will be a fantastic chlorine filter, but when you say its a "softener alternative" what does that mean ?

Finally, how do you test to see if your system is working once installed, do you have a "more soluble calcium" test ?

Best regards, and I look forward to your further participation here.

Greg

[provohandyandy]

WOW ! - I had no idea my little question would get people so riled up.
After doing LOTS of research, I called my plumber to have him put a real softener in for me instead of the cleenwater - I just can'r risk it not working and I can't find anything that says it actually will work outside of what the company itself says.


WaterGuy, thanks for joining in on the discussion, it's good to have you here, please feel free to post your opinions freely and help out in any of the categories. :)

I do work for Intermountain, I've posted it quite plainly on the forum NUMEROUS times.

I actually don't have an axe to grind against Cleenwater and I've never heard of any of our salesmen losing a sale to them.

I'm very much in favor of softening without salt. When someone invents a truly salt-free system that can remove calcium & magnesium, I'll be first in line to buy one.

Since you've joined in the discussion, and presumably work for Cleenwater, help me understand your presentation :-

You promote a "salt-free" system.
Are you touting it as being able to do any of the following:-

- Reduce calcium scale
- Decrease soap consumption
- Protect water heaters from calcium scale buildup
- Decrease hardness scale in plumbing pipes

If not, what are you touting it as ?

I can understand that your system will be a fantastic chlorine filter, but when you say its a "softener alternative" what does that mean ?

Finally, how do you test to see if your system is working once installed, do you have a "more soluble calcium" test ?

Best regards, and I look forward to your further participation here.

Greg

[ion_avenger]

You made a smart move, dude. Better to go with something that you can trust. What brand/model did you buy ?


WOW ! - I had no idea my little question would get people so riled up.
After doing LOTS of research, I called my plumber to have him put a real softener in for me instead of the cleenwater - I just can'r risk it not working and I can't find anything that says it actually will work outside of what the company itself says.

[provohandyandy]

Northstar 30 Ultra Demand

http://www.northstarconditioning.com/website/residential-products/softeners/cabinet-models.htm

[greg-cws]

Northstar 30 Ultra Demand

http://www.northstarconditioning.com/website/residential-products/softeners/cabinet-models.htm

That's not a bad system at all. What did you pay for it ?

[provohandyandy]

I paid $2100 installed with a 3 year warranty.

I love it, but the water is a little too slimy for my liking (my wife thinks it's perfect).
Do you guys know how to adjust it to make it less slimy ?

[greg-cws]

That's pretty-much par for the course with that style of softening system.

Some things you can do to minimize the sliminess:-

1. Switch to Potassium Chloride salt
2. Change to a soap with a lower pH

I've also seen some people adjust their system programming to bleed 1 grain of hardness back into their water. To me that's just counterproductive, but some are happy with that.

Good Luck !

Greg

[ion_avenger]

When your NorthStar breaks, try one of Greg's Smart Bottle Systems - They'll have Dial-a-Feel technology available to the public pretty soon. - It rocks !


That's pretty-much par for the course with that style of softening system.

Some things you can do to minimize the sliminess:-

1. Switch to Potassium Chloride salt
2. Change to a soap with a lower pH

I've also seen some people adjust their system programming to bleed 1 grain of hardness back into their water. To me that's just counterproductive, but some are happy with that.

Good Luck !

Greg

[tripleaxel]

provohandyandy;I have the exact system you have and can't get it to work right. Is yours working OK still ?


I paid $2100 installed with a 3 year warranty.

I love it, but the water is a little too slimy for my liking (my wife thinks it's perfect).
Do you guys know how to adjust it to make it less slimy ?

[provohandyandy]

Mine is fine.

Still too slimy for me. It also seems to use a bit more salt than I expected - around 3 bags a month.

Other than that its dandy.

[provohandyandy]

My northstar is running down the drainpipe for about 4 hours after it cleans. It starts cleaning at 2am in the morning and by the time I get up in the morning around 5:30 it is still running down the drain and doesnt stop until about 6am. The display says that it has finished cleaning, no motor is running and I can see anything in the manual about how to troubleshoot it.
-Any ideas ?

[greg-cws]

Andy,

It sounds to me like you might have dirt/debris between the rotor & seal.

Since your system is so young, call Northstar to arrange for a warranty service call.

Let us know how it goes.

[provohandyandy]

OK guys, I'm super pissed ! - My Northstar has flooded twice on me and I can't figure it out. When I cycle the thing it seems to draw salt brine in OK, but it will sometimes overfill. I called Northstar tech support and they gave me the runaround. My plumber is on vacation until Monday and I'm tempted to chuck the useless thing ! - any advice?

[WaterGuy]

OK guys, I'm super pissed ! - My Northstar has flooded twice on me and I can't figure it out. When I cycle the thing it seems to draw salt brine in OK, but it will sometimes overfill. I called Northstar tech support and they gave me the runaround. My plumber is on vacation until Monday and I'm tempted to chuck the useless thing ! - any advice?

Looks like you have found out why many people don't want a water softener. They require a lot of maintenance, service work to generate revenue for the companies that sell them (job security), and aren't always the perfect solution that they are pitched to be. Sorry you had a bad experience. You might consider an alternative to softening your water that will be less hassle or just choose to use products around your house that will lessen the negative effects of hard water. I would suggest using a light wax product like Rain X on your shower doors and surfaces where residue accumulates and use a good dishwasher rinse aid like glass magic and you can deal with the hard water that way instead of depending on a salt based ion exchange unit.

Good Luck getting your issues resolved. Call a licensed plumber that specializes in residential service repairs and your chances of satisfaction will go up. Many water softener sales companies do not even employ licensed plumbers so the service experience isn't always top notch.

[provohandyandy]

So what alternative do you recommend?

My plumber got home from vacation and came out. He put a new float into the tank it works OK for now, but I can see that I might want something better for the long run. I thought that NorthStar was a good brand, but I don't think so any more.

[alexthelion]

Do these system work like a regualr salt softener, and do you know any dealers in Salt Lake City or Provo that can install one?

[ion_avenger]

Good advice on the licensed plumber, but what kind of system are you suggesting to this poor dude? doesn't it require maintenance?


Looks like you have found out why many people don't want a water softener. They require a lot of maintenance, service work to generate revenue for the companies that sell them (job security), and aren't always the perfect solution that they are pitched to be. Sorry you had a bad experience. You might consider an alternative to softening your water that will be less hassle or just choose to use products around your house that will lessen the negative effects of hard water. I would suggest using a light wax product like Rain X on your shower doors and surfaces where residue accumulates and use a good dishwasher rinse aid like glass magic and you can deal with the hard water that way instead of depending on a salt based ion exchange unit.

Good Luck getting your issues resolved. Call a licensed plumber that specializes in residential service repairs and your chances of satisfaction will go up. Many water softener sales companies do not even employ licensed plumbers so the service experience isn't always top notch.

[greg-cws]

Welcome back, Tom. :)

This is a great opportunity for you to give some generally unbiased advice, especially about scale prevention systems and salt-free softening alternatives. Feel free to add your Cleenwater / Beehive Plumbing company name and contact information to your User Signature - Click here to do that (http://softwateradvice.com/forums/profile.php?do=editsignature).

I'm curious about your maintenance comment, since all water improvement products & appliances require some type of maintenance.
Please clarify that.

Interesting idea about the Rain-X, I'm going to setup a test rig with rain-x on two pieces of glass, one with soft water and one with untreated hard water. I'm excited to see the results !

I look forward to more positive input from you.



Looks like you have found out why many people don't want a water softener. They require a lot of maintenance, service work to generate revenue for the companies that sell them (job security), and aren't always the perfect solution that they are pitched to be. Sorry you had a bad experience. You might consider an alternative to softening your water that will be less hassle or just choose to use products around your house that will lessen the negative effects of hard water. I would suggest using a light wax product like Rain X on your shower doors and surfaces where residue accumulates and use a good dishwasher rinse aid like glass magic and you can deal with the hard water that way instead of depending on a salt based ion exchange unit.

Good Luck getting your issues resolved. Call a licensed plumber that specializes in residential service repairs and your chances of satisfaction will go up. Many water softener sales companies do not even employ licensed plumbers so the service experience isn't always top notch.

[ion_avenger]

Brand Information
Product Name: Rain-X Windshield Wax
Form: liquid
Product Category: Auto Products

[greg-cws]

Well, I actually did do the Rain-X experiment and after running four pieces in parallel for almost 6 months I now have the following to report:


Configuration
The glass is untreated window glass that I procured from a local glazier. Each piece is 3" wide and 6" long. I used 4 plasterer's "mud trays", (4" deep, 4" wide, 24" long) each with a flomatic pump and a Gems LS-1 float connected to a 4-zone Taco Zone Controller. Intake for the pump was at the distant end of each tray using a John Guest bulkhead connector with an RTV silicone seal. The discharge end of the pump connected to humidifier nozzle set parallel to the glass and resting on it, which created a nice sheeting effect. Tubing was 3/8" OD John Guest Polytube. I maintained a 10 degree angle on the glass with a horizontally oriented Plexiglas rod on the elevated end and a block of epoxy at the foot to keep the glass above the float level. I am confident that there was nothing to bias the results of the test.

Methodology
All 4 pumps were attached to a surge-protected power strip that was plugged into a 500VA UPS Battery backup. A 3-Amp rated interval timer was attached to the power strip with 5 minute on/30 minute off intervals - All pumps would activate and deactivate at exactly the same time. The experiment was kept in a non-windowed room at approx 30%RH : 60F to minimize the chances of "solar etching" and other potential complications.

Hard water feed was Orem, Utah city water supply (18gpg, 180ppm TDS, 7.8 pH)
Soft water feed was 0gpg (5ppm to be precise) and 185ppm TDS, 7.8 pH
Purified water feed was 0ppm hardness, 3ppm TDS, 6.8pH

Soft water - No Rain-X
The glass is slightly streaky; evidence that even though virtually all of the hardness is gone, the sodium carbonate/bicarbonate and other dissolved solids will still cause minor aesthetic issues over time. This is why we need more than softening for critical industrial processes. I was able to easily wipe the accumulation off with a wet cloth.

Hard water - No Rain-X
Glass is completely opaque, the hardness accumulation is uniform after the first 2.5 inches away from the nozzle discharge. Hardness precipitate is everywhere, at the water level, on the glass, and all over counter top where there was occasional oversprayy. The nastiness wouldn't come off until I soaked it in undiluted Pur-Gard. It effervesced beautifully, and after about 30 minutes, a light rubbing took the rest of it off easily.

Hard water - Rain-X
Glass looks just like the soft water version, quite impressive.
Hardness accumulation everywhere else is just like the previous.
The accumulated residue didn't rub off as easily as the soft water, but a little bit of Pur-Gard on a rag and a quick rub did the trick. Unfortunately, the Pur-Gard removed the Rain-X as well as the hardness residue.

Purified water - No Rain-X
Glass is completely clean, everything looks like new, no evidence of anything.

My conclusions:

1. Tests like this bring out my impatient side, it took about 30 days before I noticed any significant accumulation of buildup on the hard water side (it took longer than I had expected)

2. Hard water sucks, it ruins everything it touches!

3. Rain-X really does help in reducing hardness buildup on non-porous surfaces.
It seems like a great idea, even if you have soft water.

4. I need a lab assistant !

[ion_avenger]

excellent report. makes you think........

[WaterGuy]

Greg,

I am really impressed that you actually stuck to your word and performed what seems like a long and intensive experiment. The Rain X is a trick we learned a long time ago with our water softener customers and it does improve even softened water results for aesthetics. I am also impressed with your new product line with the anti-scaling media. I always applaud new technologies and there seems to be a good deal of science behind it. I wish you guys the best with that new line and would love to meet you some time and offer my assistance as a lab assistant :) on any projects you are working on that improve our industry. You seem like a good guy and I have only heard good things about you. Give me a call some time.

[ion_avenger]

so whats the deal?? Who is going to take care of everyone who bought one of there systems?

[eugenelfiorenzil]

The biggest benefit for this is the taste,smell,cleanliness of the water and the low maintenance.